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[03:46]<kjr>one sec
[03:47]<cfudsd>i believe the IRaq war was unjust and immoral, and had nothing to do with the surface issues, but a multifaceted geopolical agenda, when if they were wanting to liberate, protect and give freedom they should have gone into sudan then, and stopped 2 million or so killings of christians there, HOWEVER, many of the people on the ground , have tried to fight it in a way that is as moral as possible, as life saving as possible
[03:47]<cfudsd>its true that an american life is valued much more than that of an iraqi, however if america wanted to not have casualties, they would have fought in a way that was more devasting to the country
[03:48]<cfudsd>they could have just sat back and annexed the country at its border and just destroyed everything from the air
[03:49]<cfudsd>despite abu gurab and such, the US army still has more safeguards protecting people fom soldier misconduct more than anybody else
[03:49]<drdyrrr>i think they would have lost the few allies they
[03:49]<drdyrrr>had
[03:49]<drdyrrr>heh, the US GDP per capita is $42,000 as at 2005
[03:49]<drdyrrr>Guernsey is at $40,000.... as at 2003
[03:50]<drdyrrr>bring it on! ;-)
[03:51]<kjr>sorry bout that, had to finish writing something for Intel
[03:52]<kjr>there are many multinational issues at work that people talk about when convenient - let's talk about AIDS for a moment
[03:52]<drdyrrr>"Dear Intel. My new laptop powered my your Core Duo has melt my balls. Thanks a bunch, love Kog."
[03:52]<vj2nxe>Kog: you work for Intel? :]
[03:52]<kjr>tobehz: if they'll hire me
[03:52]<vj2nxe>:]
[03:52]<kjr>tobehz: the recruiter I'm working with is slow at getting back to me... I had to call his assistant
[03:52]<vj2nxe>heh
[03:52]<drdyrrr>Kog, gl
[03:53]<kjr>damieng: AIDS already killed ~20M people, 45 more infected
[03:53]<kjr>damieng: it's probably one of the highest causes of preventable death
[03:53]<kjr>damieng: parts of Europe are expecting severe population crashes, the obvious target area of Africa is being basically destroyed by it
[03:53]<kjr>damieng: there are massive outbreaks in China
[03:54]<kjr>let's talk about where UN "relief" money goes...
[03:54]<kjr>we can also ignore the various genocides around the world if you'd like too
[03:54]<kjr>shit's fucked up, and shit's been fucked up for a long damn time
[03:54]<drdyrrr>right, i'm not disputing any of that.
[03:55]<kjr>damieng: you don't think that perhaps instead of international sensationalism about how bush is a fucking idiot, perhaps we could talk about AIDS or famine?
[03:55]<kjr>damieng: no, because Bush looks too much like Alfred E Numann
[03:55]<vynvyvq>haha
[03:55]<vynvyvq>that's true
[03:55]<kjr>he's much funnier to look at than someone dying of aids
[03:55]<drdyrrr>We had a big conference about third world debt here in the uk
[03:55]<kjr>he's a "safe" topic
[03:55]<kjr>it's easy to hate Bush
[03:55]<cfudsd>yep, and thats where the constituion is right, the consitution was built knowing that men are naturally depraved, not like humanistic/communistic ideaology that says men are good, just give them the right enviroment for their goodness to show, and so the constituion understands that men are bad, and power corrupts and it tried to set a goverment in place where checks and balanced showed down that corruption
[03:55]<drdyrrr>G8
[03:56]<kjr>damieng: oh yeah... who's in the G8 again? who's running it this year?
[03:56]<cfudsd>true today, through redefining the mean of words, and "legal" precident, and loopholes, much of it is only lipservice, but still the principles are there
[03:56]<drdyrrr>Who failed to agree to Kyoto
[03:56]<kjr>klumsy: yes, that can all be repaired if people stop assuming we solved all the problems in the 60s
[03:56]<rxrcr>klumsy have you read/listened to Scott Ritter at all?
[03:56]<kjr>damieng: and you think that's the biggest issue on the table right now?
[03:56]<cfudsd>never heard scott ritter
[03:56]<kjr>damieng: you think the Kyoto Treaty would save us all?
[03:56]<drdyrrr>The USA styles itself as the leader of the free world.
[03:56]<cfudsd>was he one of the guys who had to do with nuclear stuff in iraq?
[03:57]<kjr>damieng: you forgot who forgot to sign the Geneva Convention and pulled out of the Hague too
[03:57]<kjr>damieng: and people let them get away with it
[03:57]<kjr>it's a two part problem
[03:57]<drdyrrr>so it has high visibility and should lead by example
[03:57]<drdyrrr>who pulled out then?
[03:57]<kjr>damieng: but it isn't, in the mean time that doesn't absolve you of responsibility
[03:57]<rxrcr>He's an ex marine who was stationed in Iraq as a Weapons Inspector after the first gulf war. He's got a great tale about how asinine(sp) this business with Saddam has gotten.
[03:57]<kjr>damieng: a lot of countries, namely the US
[03:58]<kjr>chaka: of course... we have a great photo of Rumsfeld shaking his hand
[03:58]<kjr>chaka: after he gave them chemicle and cluster munitions
[03:58]<drdyrrr>Kog, so what are you getting at exactly?
[03:58]<kjr>damieng: my point is, those aren't the big problems... they're just easier to harp on than actual problems
[03:58]<drdyrrr>warmongering isn't a big problem?
[03:58]<rxrcr>Kog, that was before Saddam became Reagan's worst nightmare
[03:58]<drdyrrr>famine, aids and debt are.
[03:58]<kjr>damieng: you tell me
[03:59]<kjr>damieng: but which cancels the other?
[03:59]<drdyrrr>i'm pretty sure war leads to the others
[03:59]<kjr>war has been waged for 10,000 years
[03:59]<kjr>damieng: and if the countries stop being stupid and take up the slack we've evidentally dropped, you think we can keep getting away with it?
[03:59]<kjr>the US can't take over the entire world
[03:59]<drdyrrr>i'd be prepared to bet afghanistans famine aids and debt are worse post-visit by the uk/usa
[04:00]<kjr>damieng: I'm not arguing that war devestates economy
[04:00]<kjr>damieng: I'm arguing that they can be rebuilt if people stop being apathetic
[04:00]<kjr>part of power is playing on weakness and perception
[04:01]<drdyrrr>right, as fun as this is it's 2am here and i've got to meet the morgage advisor tomorrow
[04:01]<kjr>damieng: I'm not saying bush isn't a maniac
[04:01]<kjr>I'm saying that he can't possibly invade Iran and hope to win
[04:01]<drdyrrr>i hope your right
[04:01]<kjr>and if the world gets its fucking act together, his tricks will stop working
[04:02]<kjr>damieng: you tell me, how can you win a war with no objective?
[04:02]<rxrcr>he can't invade iran because he's got no support at home
[04:02]<drdyrrr>the world doesn't like standing up to the usa - it's too big and powerful
[04:02]<kjr>damieng: it's obviously not
[04:02]<rxrcr>people aren't going to believe faulty intel this time
[04:02]<kjr>damieng: and the sooner the rest of the world realizes it, the sooner they will act
[04:02]<kjr>damieng: you know this is all true, I'm sure you can feel it yourself
[04:02]<drdyrrr>well it make me feel better knowing that his support is waning in the usa shores.
[04:03]<kjr>his approval rating is what, 36%?
[04:03]<cfudsd>US doesn't want to attack iran though, despite iran beign a real risk, they always said "diplomacy", but the main reason, is most iranians hate their govt, they are annoyed that their culture (persian) was arabized, so the us really would rather support a popular uprising
[04:03]<drdyrrr>:o
[04:03]<kjr>I guess the republicans finally figured out he's not a republican
[04:03]<cfudsd>where they are seen by the iranians as the good guy, rather than if they invade, even the anti their own govt people would fight to protect their homeland from invaders
[04:03]<drdyrrr>but he has to serve out his whole term?
[04:03]<kjr>klumsy: really... so the popular revolutions weren't real?
[04:04]<kjr>klumsy: the Shah wasn't a bastard after all?
[04:04]<drdyrrr>night all.
[04:04]<cfudsd>oh he was :)
[04:04]<kjr>seeya damieng
[04:04]<drdyrrr>wish me luck.
[04:04]<kjr>I hope I haven't disgusted you with me heh
[04:04]<kjr>damieng: you don't need luck, you've got skill ;)
[04:04]<drdyrrr>I've got to somehow persuade the bank to give me £350,000 to buy a house.

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