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[16:59]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: I can't run Office 2007 on win98, can I?
[17:00]<ycnr_>meska: prolly most Swedish unis
[17:00]<cjfmfusyjg>http://www.uu.se/ http://www.liu.se/ http://www.su.se/
[17:01]<cjfmfusyjg>those are amongst the better unis in Sweden
[17:01]<ycnr_>kth?
[17:01]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, I dont know, havent checked, but it would be stupied of ms if it was not backwards compatible
[17:02]<cjfmfusyjg>Found out something odd yesterday, a friend renamed a ms word file or if it was powerpoint to .htm and that's all he needed to do to get a htm doc from the word file ^^
[17:03]<cjfmfusyjg>nicely formated and all
[17:03]<dnscr>ColdFusion thanx
[17:03]<cjfmfusyjg>np
[17:04]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Apparently there's an upgrade for the very latest versions of Office.
[17:05]<cjfmfusyjg>I'm not sure thou, if you need to arrange so you can studdy in Sweden throu a univeristy in you're own home country, but this far, it's free except the food and where you live etc to studdy here even for those who are not Swedes
[17:05]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: But guess what? There's utterly no reason why 2007 can't support OASIS, heck, there's already a plugin that does that, but it's not done by or distributed with MS Office.
[17:05]<lnvnzxu>considering windows 98 is no longer a supported OS, i highly doubt it
[17:05]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, ms goes to great lenght trying to get monopol
[17:06]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Yup, and they also go to great lengths extortioning people to pay, once they do have the monopoly.
[17:06]<lnvnzxu>well, in 4 weeks anyway
[17:06]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, yeah, nice thing eu billed them for trying that a bit to much, at least eu tries a little to end monopols, not sure if I type that right, I generally type bad english
[17:07]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: And I bet that once Office 2007 comes out, nearly all new computers will be sold with it, as it is much "cheaper" to do so, only $500 compared to $1000 later.
[17:07]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: I could still read it.
[17:07]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: I live in Australia, where MS is _very_ established.
[17:07]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, well I dont by computre packages, I by the parts as I want it so I dont know, but you're probably right
[17:07]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Heck, my Web Design tutor didn't even know that Apache was a webserver!
[17:07]<cjfmfusyjg>thou usually it stands, pay extra a little and you get this and that
[17:07]<dnscr>that is another problem
[17:07]<dnscr>;]
[17:08]<cjfmfusyjg>lol
[17:09]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: I don't have a problem with buying a commercial OS for even a few hundred. I do have a problem with buying a commercial OS, and software, winding up with more than $1500 in software expenses alone, and then having the license turn around and start kicking you.
[17:09]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Can't even resise the damn window to show you more than 5 tiny lines at a time, and heck, can't share the printer with more than 5 users? What _is_ with that?
[17:09]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, I dont like bying anything where I can not see the sourcecode.. so I know for sure what goes around
[17:09]<rzrprrrywr>(Slight exageration, probably more like 10 lines, but that's more like it)
[17:10]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: You can see window's source code. People choose not to for legal reasons.
[17:10]<cjfmfusyjg>but I wonder, windows has been exposed to viruses a lot, linux and unix far from as much, since I have only worked a little with unix and linux, I dont know much of the security there, but if linux gets more common I bet we'll see a lot of more viruses towards linux that they're not prepared for?
[17:11]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: and due to lake of skills too :)
[17:11]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Not really, judging by their headers, it's _nasty_ code.
[17:11]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, that's the thing, it should be legal, and you should be in full controll of everything in you're own os
[17:11]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Yes, indeed.
[17:11]<cjfmfusyjg>but damn, are ms bad at managing memory? :(
[17:11]<ggyjzgx>ColdFusion: there has been as remote vulnerability on unix plateforms than on windows
[17:11]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: I'm a big fan of the "you bought it, you pretty much own it" idea.
[17:12]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: And where they fixed?
[17:12]<cjfmfusyjg>I liked the times where my amiga with 120mb harddrive rocked and it took but a second or two to start it up
[17:12]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: The typical unix system is much more secure than the typical windows system, that's a fact.
[17:13]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: :) G'night.
[17:13]<sdnffdxdlld>Arafangi1n, thats because the tipical unix system is used by atleast a power user, the tipical windows system is used by an idiot
[17:13]<cjfmfusyjg>is not unix more vulnerable to bufferoverflows?
[17:13]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: security doesn't rely only on an operating system but on its proper administration
[17:13]<rzrprrrywr>smellyhippy: No, the typical unix system doesn't run everything as root. The typical windows system runs everything as admin or other equally impressive user.
[17:14]<rzrprrrywr>smellyhippy: Also, the security model in Unix is much simpler, therefore it's more likely to be used correctly.
[17:14]<ggyjzgx>remember of the redhat 5.2 with its wu ftpd , lpd, rstatd ...
[17:14]<cjfmfusyjg>Arafangi1n, I belive that they wanted to change in the vista, remains to be seen how well they do it
[17:14]<ggyjzgx>was it really secure ?
[17:14]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Dunno, I'm a Debian user.
[17:14]<sdnffdxdlld>right and if unix was used by a stupid user they wouldnt set it to run as root to make life easier? if windows is used by a power user they dont secure things down?
[17:14]<ggyjzgx>windows2k3 implements some stack protection and even if it's not perfect, it's a first step
[17:15]<rzrprrrywr>smellyhippy: Ever tried to run Age of Empires II as a regular non-admin user on windows? (And for your info, that's a Microsoft game)
[17:15]<rzrprrrywr>smellyhippy: Heck, didn't Media player require admin privs to run at some point?
[17:15]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: red hat 5.2 was really unsecured with local and remote one shot exploits
[17:15]<sdnffdxdlld>I wouldnt know i dont use media player :P
[17:15]<dnscr>ColdFusion a bit stupid question, but perhaps you know who much master studies cost in distance learning ?:)
[17:16]<sdnffdxdlld>and imo i'm more than happy to run as root on a desktop/home machine ... i only fully secure when its important
[17:16]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: it's like openbsd telling that their os is the best ultimate secured system . That's right because openbsd doesn't offer ANY service by default
[17:16]<cjfmfusyjg>Is the problem with the user rights not the fact that applications to windows wants to add drivers all the time and make changes, where linux is built on a "simulation" more or less?
[17:16]<sdnffdxdlld>i make sure everything is ticking over nicly and securly and keep an eye on any threats
[17:16]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: I'm a little surprised they even installed the r daemons and ftp by default.
[17:16]<ggyjzgx>redhat 5.2 is old
[17:16]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Why the heck should it run any services by default?
[17:16]<dyguw>I hate business concepts... they are a pain in the ass to write.
[17:17]<cjfmfusyjg>meska, studeing in Sweden is free still ;) even for foreigners that gets accepted
[17:17]<ggyjzgx>around 1999/2000
[17:17]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Is it a problem just confirming a user's identity when such an action is needed?
[17:17]<dyguw>ColdFusion: Är du ifrån Sverige?
[17:17]<cjfmfusyjg>japp
[17:17]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: That's what Linux and Mac OS X does.
[17:17]<dyguw>ColdFusion: Trevligt, trevligt :)
[17:17]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: the problem is not why. The fact is that is what a fuckin hole opened to any script kiddy on internet
[17:17]<cjfmfusyjg>:)
[17:17]<ggyjzgx>it was*
[17:18]<ggyjzgx>debian has a better security policy
[17:18]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Quite likely, it's also less market driven, which is probably why.
[17:18]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Probably fits right between OBSD and RH.
[17:19]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Another issue is: Assume that a given daemon is unsecure, how do you minimize exploits from the rest of the system?
[17:19]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Case in point, IIS.
[17:19]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Or even Apache using unsecure modules.
[17:20]<cjfmfusyjg>you wait for an update lol
[17:20]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: Damn, an update for a big server is quite some $$$'s.
[17:20]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: IIS 6.x doesn't work on NT systems, afaik.
[17:20]<cjfmfusyjg>you said for the IIS, that should come for free no?
[17:21]<rzrprrrywr>ColdFusion: imho, security updates should always be free.
[17:21]<ggyjzgx>back
[17:22]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: What do you do if you need to run a daemon, but you know it's unsecure?
[17:22]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: How would you do it on windows?
[17:22]<dzrrjgd>how does an arraylist hold data. i just had an arraylist hold 10chars in 100 streams = 1000bytes, but when i did a BinararyFormatter on it it come put to be 623bytes.
[17:22]<ggyjzgx>Arafangi1n: I do as much as to provide the most secure solution
[17:23]<ggyjzgx>it depends on what kind of security is required
[17:23]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: Suppose an attacker breaks into IIS.
[17:23]<ggyjzgx>security means nothing to itself
[17:23]<rzrprrrywr>enioreh: How do you minimize the damage?

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