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[15:05]<wyfaj`>by default its cached in memory on the server
[15:05]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>probably in-memory
[15:05]<wyfaj`>there are ways you can cache it on disk or in other places though
[15:07]<sdnffdxdlld>cyall later
[15:07]<sdnffdxdlld>*gone*
[15:07]<nfna>yes and memory caching aint that good.. if you have 300 clients then the cache would not be big enough and i dont want a rotating cache
[15:08]<mjzymygo>elec. 300 clients at once?
[15:08]<wyfaj`>um, you have to know what makes sense to cache, etc
[15:09]<nfna>yes we had in 3 companies 300 clients on 1 macchine
[15:09]<wyfaj`>and doing things like caching for even only 1 sec can make a huge difference
[15:09]<mjzymygo>Elec: how long is the session and how big th bandwidth?
[15:09]<nfna>you know some pages had 1 hit every week not that big
[15:10]<mjzymygo>Elec: and is the 300 users simultaneous or over a time period?
[15:10]<nfna>but some with daily news.. no there where 300 different Domains aka CMS clients
[15:10]<mjzymygo>how many individual users do you envisage>
[15:11]<wyfaj`>what kind of data do you want to cache anyway ?
[15:11]<nfna>really different can't remember exactly
[15:11]<mjzymygo>Elec: you don't know much about potential capacity. how can you make decisions based on little analytical knowledge
[15:12]<vxznrv>cms?
[15:12]<wyfaj`>because if you believe its inappropriate to cache in memory, and the data you're talking about is simple data from a db you might as well just not cache anything instead of caching it on say the filesystem
[15:12]<nfna>if possible i want a cache system like typo 3.. in asp like http://www.niekom.de/fileadmin/pub/WebsiteAufruf.jpg so that the page is everytime avail as cache until you change the db
[15:12]<nfna>i was not the admin in last 2 companies and in the other we did not care it was ok so
[15:12]<wyfaj`>elec: lookup cache dependencies... specifically sqlcachedependency
[15:13]<wyfaj`>or sqldependency, dunno
[15:13]<nfna>yes i did watch at sqldependency.. but i guess if you have 5 modules in 1 page you have 5 times to ask the cache and the page is build. true ?
[15:15]<mjzymygo>Elec. well as a rule of thumb, based on a 20 minute session time, 300 users per hour would result in the need for an average bandwidth of 2.8Mb
[15:15]<mjzymygo>and so long as you have a decent server caching wouldn't be needed in a big way for that
[15:16]<nfna>maybe page caching with file output is closed the best.. i want the page to bee faaast like a php cms
[15:16]<mjzymygo>ASP.NET beats the poop out of PHP...?
[15:17]<nfna>no they have more checks in asp so php would be faster until you generate the page
[15:17]<mjzymygo>Elec: it depends on how you implement the CMS. If you base one out of your own HttpHandler then I doubt that
[15:17]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>aspx is faster than php. if when you keep saying ASP you mean the old ASP then you're in the wrong channel.
[15:17]<mjzymygo>totally.
[15:19]<nfna>yes but only as simple sample.. in php you have a smaller xml class then asp and php is there faster in xml and it so in most objects in asp you have more options therefore the objects are slower
[15:20]<zndy_wjfnz>elec: but if you cache to html, it would be a battle between Apache and IIS :p
[15:20]<wyfaj`>elec: that's rubbish
[15:20]<nfna>yes but then it is the most similar to html and thats the fast sure i bypass then the nice things of iis
[15:20]<mjzymygo>Elec: you talking about ASP.NET or ASP?
[15:21]<mjzymygo>Elec: your talking out your butt
[15:23]<nfna>the language dosen't matter how you think on caching.. it's pretty the same in most..
[15:23]<wyfaj`>uhuh
[15:24]<mjzymygo>hmm
[15:24]<nfna>yes it is sooo
[15:24]<wyfaj`>elec: except that ASP.NET (and probably JSP) offers a framework which makes it possible to provide richer caching capabilities out of the box
[15:24]<nfna>all big ones like wordpress or typo use a file cache ... or even xoops
[15:25]<wyfaj`>so?
[15:25]<nfna>and you never reach that with a memcache
[15:25]<wyfaj`>like I said before, nothing prevents you from keeping the cache on disk.
[15:25]<nfna>as sample WP-Cache is an extremely efficient WordPress page caching system to make your site much faster and responsive. It works by caching Worpress pages and storing them in a static file for serving future requests directly from the file rather than loading and compiling the whole PHP code and then building the page from the database. WP-Cache allows to serve hundred of times more pages per second, and to reduce the response time from
[15:26]<nfna>yes the best is cache all as static in files and a rotating mem cache for the most used
[15:26]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, no, the best is to compile the web server to have all the pages built in to the exe!
[15:27]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>and then load that exe into the rom of the network card!
[15:27]<wyfaj`>elec: hundred of times more pages... more than what ?
[15:27]<nfna>but it is true that you never reach the wordpress or typo speed if you dont usee a file cache
[15:27]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, times have moved on. it is totally feasible to dynamically generate pages on the fly even for large demands.
[15:27]<mjzymygo>Wilco: Elec is making a lot of choices and assumptions considering that to start with he doesn't seem to understand the performance difference behind the technologies themselves OR the capacity of the system he is trying to build.
[15:28]<wyfaj`>elec: rubbish
[15:28]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>indeed.
[15:28]<mjzymygo>absolutely
[15:28]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, go and tell ebay to statically generate all their pages.
[15:28]<wyfaj`>elec: memory access is much quicker than disk access. The option between the 2 depends on the type of data you're caching, the type of audience (and their behavior), etc.
[15:28]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>oh, and google too.
[15:28]<mjzymygo>and yahoo
[15:28]<mjzymygo>amazon
[15:28]<wyfaj`>heh
[15:28]<mjzymygo>BBC
[15:29]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>don't bother with personalisation of course.
[15:29]<nfna>and the best 2 CMS are using it as cache...
[15:29]<mjzymygo>Elec: which ones are they?
[15:29]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>then go use it.
[15:29]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>don't sit here wanting old style PHP tech.
[15:29]<fyfuym-syfggag>eh
[15:29]<nfna>typo3 and worpress.. both over 1400 modules and calld faaaaast
[15:29]<fyfuym-syfggag>lol
[15:29]<wyfaj`>elec: I recommend you to stop trying to compare technologies you have not looked into with things you do know about - at least for now, until you can properly discuss and compare the 2
[15:29]<fyfuym-syfggag>old style is teh best
[15:29]<fyfuym-syfggag>just not with php in teh sentence
[15:30]<wyfaj`>elec: right now it just looks like you're a PHP or WP salesman.
[15:30]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>indeed.
[15:30]<fyfuym-syfggag>heh
[15:30]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>who's only been on the "why caching is great" induction course.
[15:30]<wyfaj`>without any means to actually gain knowledge about how you can do things in ASP.NET
[15:30]<mjzymygo>since when was Typo3 one of the best CMS's?
[15:30]<fyfuym-syfggag>nah man
[15:30]<nfna>no ssay me why mem cache would be faster.. and if someone is hitting a 4 year old page then it is generated 100 times if you have a file cache only 1 time
[15:30]<zndy_wjfnz>both are OSS, they don't have salesmen... Ah well, nm :p
[15:31]<nfna>the best i call it myself based one the modules show me another cms with over 1200 modules and we call that better
[15:31]<mjzymygo>or even wordpress come to thnk of it
[15:31]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, because heaven forbid... while the content might now change... there may be personalisation on it, todays date, a sidebar of newer headlines...
[15:31]<wyfaj`>elec: why does a computer have memory at all do you think?
[15:31]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, fine, then go and use them.
[15:31]<wyfaj`>elec: why dont we just use the entire HD as a replacement for RAM?
[15:31]<wyfaj`>i mean, if you like to think HD is faster than RAM......
[15:32]<fyfuym-syfggag>caching almost always causes crap
[15:32]<wyfaj`>hd's are cheaper and bigger
[15:32]<fyfuym-syfggag>in my experience
[15:32]<zndy_wjfnz>because hdd access is slow as hell
[15:32]<fyfuym-syfggag>the client phones you
[15:32]<nfna>coz mem is faster sure.. but you generate the same page 100 times without data change
[15:32]<fyfuym-syfggag>and tells you the data is not correct

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