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[15:32]<wyfaj`>Liquid-Silence: when done right, caching is a very powerful and relatively easy thing to do.
[15:32]<wyfaj`>(14:29:42) <elec> no ssay me why mem cache would be faster..
[15:32]<fyfuym-syfggag>wilco`: yeah
[15:32]<wyfaj`>(14:31:25) <elec> coz mem is faster sure..
[15:32]<wyfaj`>I like it when people answer their own questions :)
[15:33]<wyfaj`>the best way to end a conversation nice and gentle :)
[15:33]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>saving cached files to disk is an optimization. like all optimization it comes with a whole load of penalties. and the chances are you don't need it.
[15:33]<mjzymygo>Elec: if a page is four years old, why would it be resquested 100 times in a short period of time?
[15:33]<fyfuym-syfggag>Moridin8: lol
[15:33]<fyfuym-syfggag>dont carry on with this
[15:33]<mjzymygo>surely if a page is THAT old then it wouldn't need caching...
[15:34]<fyfuym-syfggag>please :P
[15:34]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>and so what if it is created 100 times. 100x10ms = 1 second. ouch that really screwed up our server :D
[15:34]<mjzymygo>it should be archived at that point anyway!
[15:34]<nfna>dont know it is so.. if 1 user search all his postings on slashdot or similar then it is generated for him and left in cache for noone..
[15:34]<zndy_wjfnz>elec: the power of caching is that the page _won't_ be re-created
[15:34]<mjzymygo>Damieng: Even less miliseconds than that if it's done right ;)
[15:34]<wyfaj`>heh yea
[15:34]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, and what if you like to put the users name in every page like google do?
[15:34]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>oh, that won't cache either.
[15:34]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>or if somebody updates one of the templates... oops, clear the cache again.
[15:34]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: um, the page will usually be recreated
[15:35]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>or the layout includes top headlines in the side/footer... oops, clear the cache.
[15:35]<mjzymygo>Elec: wna dwhat if each page has a dynamic control in it?
[15:35]<zndy_wjfnz>elec: Caching is also about dumping cache content that is no longer needed
[15:35]<mjzymygo>like a news ticker?
[15:35]<mjzymygo>or current weathe?
[15:35]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: Then it is not cached :)
[15:35]<wyfaj`>anyway, more context is really required to properly discuss caching in a meaningful way
[15:35]<dzrrjgd>when using Sockets how big should my read buffer be?
[15:35]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: partial output caching is very powerful and popular :)
[15:35]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: I know. I use it too. But the cached parts, won't be recreated ;)
[15:36]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>dragond, depends on what you're expecting packet wise.
[15:36]<fyfuym-syfggag>DragonD: |-------------------------| <== that big?
[15:36]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: controls with output caching are substituted with specialized controls
[15:36]<mjzymygo>Remi: stuff hit constantly (on a busy system..>) would pole the CMS DB every couple of minutes and update the cache on updates. It's real quick
[15:36]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: and the page is still constructed on each request, just with different controls.
[15:36]<fyfuym-syfggag>wilco`: I was thinking of hitting caching on my crystal reports
[15:37]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_Features
[15:37]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: you are saying exactly the same thing as me... Why are you trying to convince me?
[15:37]<wyfaj`>sorry, last time i used CR was about 3 years ago now and I like to forget about any of my experience with it.
[15:37]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>even the WordPress page doesn't make any case for caching being an important features.
[15:37]<dzrrjgd>damieng-work: working on a usenet client
[15:37]<fyfuym-syfggag>wilco`: I hate crystal too
[15:37]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>hmm.
[15:37]<mjzymygo>this wordpress is pants...
[15:37]<fyfuym-syfggag>so I do feel your pain
[15:37]<mjzymygo>seen much better
[15:37]<fyfuym-syfggag>:P
[15:37]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>i'd probably go with at least 16k buffers to start.
[15:38]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: just saying that a page /is/ still actually created on each request.
[15:38]<wyfaj`>if you know that, then fine, ignore me :)
[15:38]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>make it configurable ;-)
[15:38]<dzrrjgd>damieng-work: would i loose anything is i go smaller?
[15:38]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>put some metrics in there DragonD and tweak the default during dev.
[15:38]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>Well definately don't go smaller than 2K
[15:38]<wyfaj`>Liquid-Silence: admittedly the guys who started with CR in that project back then screwed up a lot. Most of my pain was because of their incompetence
[15:38]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: Define creation. Do you mean the dynamic part done by ASP/PHP, or the 'buffer flushing' to say it rude?
[15:39]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>bear in mind the garbage collection changes depending on object size.
[15:39]<dzrrjgd>damieng-work: ok.
[15:39]<mjzymygo>hmm... Elec went...
[15:39]<wyfaj`>anyway, the last time i had to do reporting I used sql reporting services, and loved it.
[15:39]<nfna>searching good samples
[15:39]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>also, if you're going to pass that buffer around make sure it's a reference type (class) and not a value type(struct)
[15:39]<mjzymygo>Wilco: not everyone can afford reporting services tho.
[15:39]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>or you'll blow your stack
[15:39]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>well
[15:39]<mjzymygo>damieng: literally ;)
[15:39]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>if you recurse.
[15:40]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>otherwise it'll just be slow 16kb copies everywhere
[15:40]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: the Page object and its child controls (which may be cache controls)
[15:40]<wyfaj`>Moridin8: isn't it part of a sql server license?
[15:40]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>I thought so.
[15:40]<wyfaj`>Moridin8: and when you use reporting services, don't you already have a sql server license nayway?:)
[15:40]<wyfaj`>anyway, too
[15:41]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: I call that constructing. Creating is making something out of nothing
[15:41]<wyfaj`>Remi_Woler: uhuh
[15:41]<nfna>as sample that page was given from our local biggest asp company to a php company .. cause the php page was faster.. http://www.meinsuedtirol.com and it uses html file cache with sql cache (they werent able to make the same speed in asp .. with 4 doctors)
[15:41]<zndy_wjfnz>wilco`: so we agree we agree? ;)
[15:42]<nfna>but i hope the same is possible in asp
[15:42]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>cost involved in porting from asp to php... $$$$$
[15:42]<mjzymygo>Wilco: http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/rs/howtolicensers.mspx
[15:42]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>cost involved in switching to a faster server. $$
[15:42]<zndy_wjfnz>damieng-work: there is some asp2php app :p
[15:43]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>mmm i bet that code is easy to maintain.
[15:43]<nfna>yes if you like to sell mssql and iis server then the speed is ok if it slower
[15:43]<wyfaj`>In scenario 1, the Report Server and Report Server Database are installed on the same computer, so only one valid license for SQL Server 2000 is required.
[15:43]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>elec, we've all written big sites that have no performance problems.
[15:43]<mjzymygo>Elec> Are you walking about ASP or ASP.NET?
[15:44]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>Moridin8, I don't think he knows the difference.
[15:44]<mjzymygo>Wilco: many I work on are not like that
[15:44]<wyfaj`>i dunno about CR's licensing model though, so i dont really know how they compare
[15:44]<dzdyzzz-wjzc>I wish Trillian had a /ignore
[15:44]<fyfuym-syfggag>www.endofworld.net
[15:44]<mjzymygo>Damieng: yes. I kinda see that
[15:44]<fyfuym-syfggag>have you guys seen that
[15:44]<fyfuym-syfggag>?
[15:44]<zndy_wjfnz>damieng-work: get a real irc client :p
[15:44]<wyfaj`>yeah, maybe reporting services is more expensive with certain setups - i wouldnt know
[15:44]<wyfaj`>anyway, gtg.

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