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[07:56]<xylxjzys>AnarkiDotNET: actually I almost turned that into a project for my university class
[07:56]<zndy_wjfnz>hmm... Been refactoring my app for the past 4 hours, only to find out that I can't use custom indexes :S
[07:56]<xylxjzys>yes! AnarkiDotNET exactly
[07:57]<xylxjzys>I've been thinking about that for a long time
[07:57]<xylxjzys>I think it would be a *much* cooler form of version control ;-)
[07:57]<zgzzcydjvgev>yes
[07:57]<xylxjzys>just that whenever you edit a document, you see other peoples' changes in realtime
[07:57]<xylxjzys>it would be easy to program I suspect
[07:57]<xylxjzys>write it :D
[07:57]<xylxjzys>maybe not as a VS plugin at first; just an independent program
[07:57]<xylxjzys>Kiryn: what do you mean?
[07:57]<zgzzcydjvgev>have perhaps a per-project or per-session setting that saved the state of everything every 5 minutes or something
[07:57]<kdzdg>yeah that would be cool to have
[07:57]<xylxjzys>Kiryn> too bad MS won't let C# be portable to nix <-- C# is not Visual Studio
[07:58]<xylxjzys>do you mean you wish Visual Studio were portable?
[07:58]<rxrsvr>even if it was i think there is a comapny that has a license from ms to make that run on nix as well
[07:58]<xylxjzys>that might be a good idea, but the source isn't portable at all.... it's all win32 API dependent AFAIK
[07:58]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>isn't C# portable to nix anyway? Mono, DotGnu...
[07:58]<kdzdg>make a MS C# compiler for linux and port its frame to Linux for multiplatform support to have the real framework and not some copy of it
[07:58]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: yes, it is
[07:58]<zndy_wjfnz>yeah. But then, *nix would also need to be able to run the win32 apps :p
[07:58]<rxrsvr>http://www.mainsoft.com/
[07:59]<zgzzcydjvgev>Xiphoris how familiar are you with visual studio plugins?
[07:59]<xylxjzys>Kiryn: why would MS do that though? :P MS has no incentive to make other (non-Windows) platforms more useful
[07:59]<kdzdg>they do it for Mac
[07:59]<xylxjzys>AnarkiDotNET: I've worked on one for http://www.xiphoris.com/c3
[07:59]<kdzdg>why not Linux
[07:59]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Kiryn: Mono is actually reasonably well done in that regard. Only problem is, most C# apps call out to too much native Windows stuff.
[07:59]<xylxjzys>because they're partnered with mac
[07:59]<xylxjzys>MS owns Apple, or something like that :P
[07:59]<kdzdg>why can't they be partners with Linux
[07:59]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>they own Apple stock
[07:59]<xylxjzys>linux isn't a company, Kiryn
[07:59]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>you can't do that with Linux
[08:00]<kdzdg>oph ok nevermind
[08:00]<xylxjzys>you could partner with a single Linux company, like RedHat
[08:00]<zgzzcydjvgev>if only *nix, windows, and mac used the same executable format...
[08:00]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>gee, let me buy a billion shares of free for free. Guess how much they're worth? :P
[08:00]<rxrsvr>as i was saying http://dev.mainsoft.com/Default.aspx?tabid=45
[08:00]<xylxjzys>but then it would spread to every other Linux, many of which are competition for Windows
[08:00]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>AnarkiDotNET: an executable format does not an OS make. Wine supports exe, doesn't mean it supports all Windows apps.
[08:00]<xylxjzys>something people forget is that companies are legally obligated to their shareholders to make smart business decisions
[08:01]<zgzzcydjvgev>SanityInAnarchy but it'd be a step in the right direction
[08:01]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>and Xiphoris, I also like to think that ethical decisions can be smart for business, also
[08:01]<kdzdg>if one person has a stock of one company does he have somewhat of a say too?
[08:02]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>AnarkiDotNET: that it would. What bugs me is how fragmented things get when you leave the MS mothership... I do like source compatibility, though
[08:02]<zndy_wjfnz>Kiryn: yes. But he prolly would be overruled by all the others :)
[08:02]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Kiryn: relative to how much stock they have.
[08:02]<kdzdg>exactly
[08:02]<kdzdg>the more stock the more say
[08:02]<kdzdg>23 minutes lef
[08:02]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Kiryn: the smarter companies never sell more than 49% of their stock
[08:02]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: what does ethics have to do with it?
[08:03]<zndy_wjfnz>till you have 50.1%, then you don't have to argue anymore ;)
[08:03]<kdzdg>what version of VS does everyone have?
[08:03]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: nah, nevermind, I'd rather not start a jihad right now
[08:03]<xylxjzys>Microsoft isn't ethically obliged to do things for other platforms, esp. when those platforms compete directly with Windows
[08:03]<xylxjzys>remember that most companies like IBM or Google don't really support any of their competition in the OSS stuff they do
[08:03]<xylxjzys>have you seen Google's linux kernel? or it's filesystem code? hell no
[08:03]<zgzzcydjvgev>ethics in software is like ethics in any other field of science: nice, but unecessary
[08:04]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: actually, yes, yes I have
[08:04]<xylxjzys>all the stuff they release isn't related to their business model at all, at least no directly
[08:04]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: let me find the FS code for you...
[08:04]<xylxjzys>really? where?
[08:04]<zndy_wjfnz>Xiphoris: If they use OSS, I think they have to share all improvements they make. Not sure though
[08:04]<xylxjzys>I've seen a document overview of it, but not any source..
[08:04]<kdzdg>hey i got a question. Do you agree with Open or Closed? what would you choice?
[08:05]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: nah, nevermind, it was that doc
[08:05]<xylxjzys>I'm happy with everything. I release some of my applications open, some closed
[08:05]<zndy_wjfnz>Kiryn: That depends per application
[08:05]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: yeah, that lone PDF describing a high-level architecture is not the same as releasing all the Linux source
[08:05]<xylxjzys>Google wouldn't do that, because then their competition will use it
[08:05]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>they did release a pretty nice AJAX library
[08:05]<xylxjzys>if you look at all the OSS released by any company, you won't find anything (from the large ones) that relates to their business model
[08:06]<xylxjzys>true
[08:06]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>and I do think Gmail relates to their business model
[08:06]<xylxjzys>but that's just frills... the unique part of google is the search it supports; everyone on the web has AJAX now
[08:06]<kdzdg>thats one thing i love about the windows frame and api your not forced to have to do open source or pay for you able to release it and make money off of it but like Qt your forced to pay $3000 to make a profit or open source
[08:06]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: MS has released a pretty badass AJAX library too
[08:07]<xylxjzys>check this out: http://atlas.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabid=47
[08:07]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>anyway, the thing that bugs me about MS isn't that they don't release .NET/C# source, but that I'm kind of afraid of them changing things out from under me, without changing the specs to match. Isn't that what they did with Java?
[08:07]<xylxjzys>MS's is actually way more badass than Google's, IMO, but you could call me biased :P
[08:07]<xylxjzys>but if you like AJAX, really check out Atlas
[08:07]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>I can, and I do, but I'd much rather use a lightweight library
[08:08]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: they don't release C# source, but C# is standardized, both by ECMA and ISO
[08:08]<xylxjzys>here's the ECMA standard: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm
[08:08]<xylxjzys>.NET 1.0 and 1.1 and 2.0 are always going to be exactly those, as specified by the ECMA standard
[08:08]<zgzzcydjvgev>is there a "test" though?
[08:08]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: I know. And I've got Mono, which is hopefully small enough to ship with my app if MS ever does that again. Java was pretty standardized, btw -- no standards body, but...
[08:08]<zgzzcydjvgev>like the ACID2 test for browsers
[08:08]<xylxjzys>what will C# 3.0 be? well, no one even knows for sure yet..
[08:09]<xylxjzys>we're still figuring out how to implement some features of C#, and those features aren't decided for sure, ... once it's standardized it won't be changing, but until then... what can you expect of work-in-progress?
[08:09]<kdzdg>i can't wait for the next release of the net frame
[08:09]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: oops -- I don't see any source for Atlas, maybe I'm not looking hard enough
[08:10]<zgzzcydjvgev>i cant wait for an extremely lightweight version of IIS :)
[08:10]<zgzzcydjvgev>the current version makes apache look like a ballerina
[08:10]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: ... if it's an AJAX library it'd be pretty hard for it to work without the JS that's served to users being available to their browsers, no?
[08:10]<xylxjzys>AnarkiDotNET: yeah, it is pretty heavy. it's more of an application server than a webserver now, really..
[08:11]<szgdvddgzgzzaxd>Xiphoris: ah, but if it's at all like Google's library, most of what makes it nice is JS generation
[08:11]<xylxjzys>SanityInAnarchy: I don't know; I have never used it :) perhaps that part of its source is not open

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