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[13:51]<mjzymygo><-- prefers proven experience to paper...
[13:51]<cjmgrug>hmm i see
[13:52]<mjzymygo><-- even people with CompSci degrees annoy me
[13:52]<zyccus>Moridin8: hey I have a compsci degree... for what it's worth
[13:52]<mjzymygo>*lol* yeh... but you have experience
[13:53]<rwyfcygs>THey paid my sweatshop wages for a year or two, mind.
[13:53]<mjzymygo>A lot of people come out of Uni and think thats all they ever need to know.
[13:53]<mjzymygo>They get stuck and stop learning.
[13:53]<zyccus>Moridin8: right... hiring someone straight from a degree without looking at their code would be foolish... and you're still going to get someone who doesn't know how systems get built
[13:53]<cjmgrug>i'm still a compsci student and i really want to make some cash with this stuff... :(
[13:53]<mjzymygo>It's THOSE individuals that peave me
[13:53]<mjzymygo>I've worked with so many people out of uni for several years and they don;t know their ass from their elbow.
[13:53]<mjzymygo>I HATE it
[13:54]<cjmgrug>lol
[13:54]<zyccus>Moridin8: we had one of them here... he's gone now
[13:54]<cjmgrug>interesting.. rikkus
[13:54]<rwyfcygs>CodeRun ; invest some time in things like unit testing(NUnit, JUnit), build systems (Nant, Ant)
[13:54]<rwyfcygs>Source control systems
[13:54]<mjzymygo>One such idiot was my boss for a while before I quit and told him why...
[13:54]<cjmgrug>ah, thanks, awilkins. i'll look into those.
[13:55]<mjzymygo>rikkus: they are WAY too common.
[13:55]<zyccus>CodeRun: it doesn't teach you how 'real world' systems are built - but it teaches you quite a lot about working in a team - releases, source control, etc.
[13:55]<cjmgrug>yea, that experience would help.
[13:55]<rwyfcygs>And learn good error handling!
[13:55]<zyccus>Moridin8: this person would do things like give me his opinion on why C# was better than .NET
[13:56]<mjzymygo>>_O
[13:56]<zyccus>Moridin8: I didn't bother to correct him
[13:56]<rwyfcygs>The most common differentiator I see between good "engineer" code and Amateur code is the amateur code has no error handling. Or worse, BAD error handling.
[13:56]<mjzymygo>I had one individual once try to tell me how to program in OOP and that VB6 was a real OOP...
[13:56]<mjzymygo>I coldn';t tell him he was talking out of his proverbial 'cos he was my boss.
[13:57]<rwyfcygs>VB6 has interfaces, so you can do OOP in it ; but it's bloody annoying and you do have to make compromises
[13:57]<mjzymygo>I had another who couldn't tell why his code kept dying... I told him not to use statics... he didn;t get it
[13:57]<zyccus>awilkins: I know - I've been doing some recently
[13:57]<rwyfcygs>I think the major problem with doing OOP in VB6 is most of the people using it cant comprehend it.
[13:57]<zyccus>Moridin8: lots of people seem to have trouble with statics... usually the no-hopers
[13:57]<mjzymygo>VB6 is OOP aware... it IS NOT OOP
[13:57]<mjzymygo>I HATED developing in it
[13:58]<mjzymygo><-- C++ background
[13:58]<rwyfcygs>Problem with VB6 is that it's easy to write bad code.
[13:58]<mjzymygo>too easy
[13:58]<mjzymygo>its clumsy, clunky and horrid
[13:58]<rwyfcygs>BUt once you learn how to write good code in it it's a very respectable language.
[13:58]<mjzymygo>awilkins: get a life
[13:58]<mjzymygo>it was aweful
[13:58]<zyccus>awilkins: I did a little tiny bit of OO design to get some UI/business logic separation into some VB6 and my fellow developer was completely lost and claimed I'd 'over-engineered' the code. It was really, really simple - he just didn't understand the concept of, well, an event :)
[13:58]<rwyfcygs>I wrote VB6 code professionally for 5 years :-)
[13:59]<mjzymygo>3 years
[13:59]<mjzymygo>and I hated every second of it
[13:59]<rwyfcygs>rikkus: Ah yes, I feel your pain
[13:59]<mjzymygo>I wanted to use sodding ATL
[13:59]<sdnffdxdlld>stupid msdn and its stupid lack of information at vital points
[13:59]<rwyfcygs>rikkus: I was regarded as a radical because I was the only person who knew what the "Implements" keyword did.
[13:59]<mjzymygo>awilkins: WHAT?
[13:59]<mjzymygo>what chicken shit outfit was THAT
[13:59]<zyccus>awilkins: yes when the IDE isn't crashing, VB6 actually works ok, and you can do OOP in it, to a degree. The thing that still upsets me, though, is the lack of exceptions.
[14:00]<rwyfcygs>rikkus I adopted huntErr31 for error handling in VB6, it's not bad.
[14:00]<sdscr>Hi, trying to use GridView, and a delete query to delete rows, but it delete the selected row... what prop can I bind it to so that it deletes the row I cloicked the "delete" button on?
[14:01]<zyccus>awilkins: which one's that? I've seen one which implements exceptions, but it scared me (big hack), and retrofitting to this huge monster I'm working on would be impossible.
[14:01]<rwyfcygs>http://www.urfinjus.net/UJv3/prodvb6/hunterr.aspx
[14:01]<mjzymygo>--> what chicken shit outfit was THAT?
[14:02]<rwyfcygs>Company doing healthcare software
[14:02]<mjzymygo>yeuck
[14:02]<zyccus>awilkins: nice, thanks - might use it if I have to do new VB6 projects (unlikely, thankfully)
[14:02]<mjzymygo>Descent IT skills in the UK are at a woeful low considering how saturated it is.
[14:03]<rwyfcygs>I quite because I tried to do proper UML artifacts in a design document, they told me that people couldn't comprehend Use Case diagrams and to use their template.. and then told me that the docuemnt I wrote using their templates were inadequate.
[14:03]<rwyfcygs>*quit
[14:03]<zyccus>Moridin8: they are everywhere - never heard of the bottom 95% of developers?
[14:03]<mjzymygo>=/
[14:03]<zyccus>awilkins: that's the sort of thing I have to avoid doing here, in case of the same problem
[14:04]<rwyfcygs>rikkus: We ended up implementing something similar to squeeze stack traces from our components, just wish wed seen that first.
[14:04]<mjzymygo>It's when they are your interviewers I hate.
[14:04]<mjzymygo>It's so easy to scare people
[14:04]<rwyfcygs>In my next posting I shoved that into every project I touched ; turned our debug times from days to hours.
[14:05]<zyccus>I've decided that when I next move job, I want to see code from the company I'm applying to before I accept a job.
[14:05]<rwyfcygs>And I converted the VSS database into an SVN repository while the dev manager was on holiday.
[14:05]<mjzymygo>rikkus: I tried that for a while... They hate it
[14:05]<zyccus>and if they don't do automated testing, I'm not taking it
[14:05]<mjzymygo>it's such an employers market here.
[14:05]<zyccus>Moridin8: I can imagine - they think it's their secrets
[14:05]<mjzymygo>and too many project managers think developers are expendable resources
[14:05]<zyccus>even asking to see it sounds like you're criticising
[14:06]<rwyfcygs>rikkus: Yeah, like the 19 (!!) level nesting in one routine... or the Textbox KeyUp event that prints to over 24 pages of A$ code.
[14:06]<zyccus>awilkins: got both of those... also got 'Sub's which exceed VB's maximum length
[14:06]<mjzymygo>It's figured that good developers need to know as much detail and remember as much detail as lawyers... and our jobs are more stressful. Yet we get paid a 3rd of what we should
[14:07]<zyccus>awilkins: when I suggested it might be better design to split up the code, the responsible developer said it wasn't, and it was VB's fault
[14:07]<mjzymygo>^^^ yeh... blame the TOOL...=/
[14:07]<zyccus>Moridin8: stressful indeed - when you're making stuff from scratch which, if it goes wrong, can do serious harm, possibly to customers, and definitely to the company you're working for
[14:08]<rwyfcygs>Heh, we were running against the limits of the VB3 compiler... we had to be careful about our symbol count, and string literals
[14:08]<zyccus>I'm making stuff which gives people information on how to handle, label, etc. chemicals - if I get it wrong, things explode, people get burned,...
[14:08]<mjzymygo>the UK underpays...
[14:09]<rwyfcygs>I actually got to the point where I was generating outlandish source files to test what the limits of the compiler actually were.
[14:09]<mjzymygo>the US pays right... but then their is less saturation and a willingness for a longer ROI
[14:09]<rwyfcygs>Too many jobs in financial institutions and direct marketing right now...
[14:10]<rwyfcygs>I actually regret quitting my first coding job with the healthcare software guys
[14:10]<mjzymygo>I only regret working for the company I worked in with smellyhippy...
[14:11]<rwyfcygs>I might eat some humble pie and mail the CTO to say "if you have an opening, let me know..."
[14:11]<mjzymygo>what I hate is going to interviews and getting told no because I am a 'Maverick'...
[14:11]<mjzymygo>translate: you scare us
[14:11]<zyccus>heh

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