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[17:19]<currpurjrv>Moridin8: I've been there
[17:19]<mjzymygo>who are 'LogicaCMG'??
[17:19]<rwyfcygs>Consulting firm in the UK
[17:20]<currpurjrv>OOP and .NET surprisinly is understood very well by a lot of people that make important decisions for a company
[17:20]<mjzymygo>awilkins: you applying ;)
[17:20]<rwyfcygs>Dunno, I'm not sure consulting would suit
[17:20]<mjzymygo>kungfugoat: err... not in my experience ;)
[17:20]<currpurjrv>s/is/isn't
[17:20]<rwyfcygs>Besides, I'm on three months notice
[17:20]<mjzymygo>awilkins: =/ I hate those
[17:20]<rwyfcygs>I'm getting 38kUKP too, which isn't so bad
[17:21]<rwyfcygs>OTOH I have a performance assesment this week ; and I'm pretty sure I suck at this job.
[17:21]<rwyfcygs>Because it's SOOOO FUCKING BORING
[17:21]<currpurjrv>I sucked at my last job
[17:21]<rwyfcygs>Anything boring and I goof off on IRC and slashdot all day (oops)
[17:21]<currpurjrv>I was hired as a programmer but ended up maintaining and building web sites
[17:22]<currpurjrv>I'm no graphic artist :(
[17:22]<mjzymygo>awilkins: sounds familiar ;)
[17:22]<wmrmmgnss>i was hired as the network admin, but ended up doing both admin and web dev and dba
[17:22]<mjzymygo>xmaddness: thats how I started out in the industry... ajack of all trades
[17:23]<wmrmmgnss>kinda hard to get my programming done with users all complaining that they can't login (cause their caps lock is on)
[17:23]<wmrmmgnss>get a call about every 10 minutes on some similar act of stupidity
[17:24]<rwyfcygs>I was hired because I was cheap and ended up as a programmer
[17:24]<mjzymygo>did you get the "Coffee cup holder on my computer keeps vanishing"
[17:24]<rwyfcygs>Started at £12k
[17:24]<currpurjrv>my grandfather used to say, "If you're good at your job, you're supposed to know how to do it without most of the tools and support."
[17:24]<currpurjrv>he was a carpenter :)
[17:26]<currpurjrv>I have a phone interview in a couple of hours
[17:26]<currpurjrv>this time it's for Java development
[17:26]<currpurjrv>I only did Java in school
[17:26]<rwyfcygs>TAlk about patterns and test-driven development
[17:26]<currpurjrv>will do
[17:27]<wmrmmgnss>lol
[17:27]<zzcn_>oh definetely TDD and javadoc
[17:27]<wmrmmgnss>talk about the dev cycle
[17:27]<zzcn_>they love that
[17:27]<rwyfcygs>All my recent interviews lapped that up
[17:27]<wmrmmgnss>they like that also
[17:28]<mjzymygo>TDD... man is that a waist of time.
[17:28]<wmrmmgnss>meh
[17:28]<wmrmmgnss>meeting time
[17:28]<mjzymygo>creating the tests AFTER first iteration yeh
[17:28]<wmrmmgnss>bbl
[17:28]<mjzymygo>not AFTER
[17:28]<wmrmmgnss>thnx for your help guys
[17:28]<mjzymygo>xmaddness: np ;)
[17:29]<mjzymygo>not AFTER = NO Before
[17:29]<mjzymygo>NOT BEFORE
[17:29]<mjzymygo>x|
[17:29]<rwyfcygs>s/want's/wants
[17:29]<mjzymygo>TDD is a good concept, but in practice assumes you know everything about the class you are about to throw together, which is realy the case
[17:30]<mjzymygo>s/realy/rarely
[17:30]<rwyfcygs>True ; I think of it more of writing the tests *just& before you write a given routine
[17:30]<rwyfcygs>Rather than writing all the tests, then all the code
[17:30]<mjzymygo>nope... it's about creating the tests before the routine is created.
[17:31]<mjzymygo>it took an idea to the extreme of stupidity that a little real-world savy shows people otherwise
[17:31]<rwyfcygs>"objectively assesses the work of the team and provides clear constructive
[17:31]<rwyfcygs>feedback to the team in a manner most likely to maintain and improve
[17:31]<mjzymygo>http://www.agiledata.org/essays/tdd.html
[17:31]<rwyfcygs>performance"
[17:32]<currpurjrv>lol
[17:32]<mjzymygo>Test-driven development (TDD) (Beck 2003; Astels 2003), is an evolutionary approach to development which combines test-first development where you write a test before you write just enough production code to fulfill that test and refactoring
[17:32]<rwyfcygs>Isn't that what I said? "writing the tests just before you write a given routine"?
[17:32]<mjzymygo>it forces you to work to accepted data restrictions, which can be good, but forces bad extensibility
[17:33]<mjzymygo>yeh... ;)
[17:33]<mjzymygo>misread your statement
[17:33]<mjzymygo>sorry
[17:33]<rwyfcygs>The refactoring thing is the best part
[17:33]<mjzymygo>Yes it is.
[17:33]<rwyfcygs>We had this ancient codebase that noone would dare re-structure in case it broke something
[17:33]<currpurjrv>it's even worse when writing and maintaining web applications
[17:34]<rwyfcygs>I always looked at it with my refactoring hat on
[17:34]<mjzymygo>In practice though creating the first couple of iterations without a formal test allows the developer to use his/her experience first.
[17:34]<mjzymygo>which is usually much more productive and successful.
[17:34]<mjzymygo>awilkins: ugh... I hate fragile spagetti
[17:35]<rwyfcygs>They're porting it to VB6 now :-)
[17:35]<mjzymygo>^^^ what?
[17:35]<rwyfcygs>I would be refactoring the living shit out of it if I was still there
[17:35]<rwyfcygs>It's VB3 code
[17:35]<mjzymygo>uh.. yeh I remember
[17:35]<rwyfcygs>About 40 MB or so of it
[17:35]<mjzymygo>fucking hell
[17:35]<mjzymygo>FUCKING HELL
[17:36]<mjzymygo>VB6's support lifetime is very very restricted now...
[17:36]<mjzymygo>they reckon mid 2007... I think
[17:36]<rwyfcygs>Yeah, but who ever used the support?
[17:36]<mjzymygo>*lol*
[17:36]<currpurjrv>I didn't
[17:36]<mjzymygo>nor me
[17:36]<mjzymygo>but it's also about it working in the future ;)
[17:36]<rwyfcygs>I mean, your options are "a) Whine to microsoft and nothing will get done" or "(b) work out a way around it with an API call"
[17:37]<zyccus>Moridin8: I write tests first... and as I write the tests, I think about what I want the design to be like, and write the tests to deal with what I will have written - then when I'm happy, I go and implement. I find that allows me to avoid design mistakes I would have made if I hadn't been looking at the public interface of the new code.
[17:37]<zyccus>awilkins: now that's crazy
[17:37]<rwyfcygs>:-)
[17:38]<rwyfcygs>I'd like to see what they are going to do with some of my modules ; like the state-machine based XML parser written in VB3.
[17:38]<currpurjrv>I need to go get a hearing test done in an hour
[17:38]<rwyfcygs>Are they going to bin it, and use MSXML, or will it survive, a strange anachronism in a big ball of mud....
[17:39]<rwyfcygs>Work based healthcheck? Or are you just going deaf?
[17:39]<currpurjrv>I worked as a DJ for a little bit
[17:39]<currpurjrv>I'm just going deaf

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