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[16:27]<drdyrrr>uh-huh
[16:28]<drdyrrr>err, symbian is C++
[16:28]<fjn2svnz>symbian is not C++
[16:28]<rwyfcygs>runtime: My friend in Ipswich
[16:28]<fjn2svnz>in C++ you wouldn't have to do exception handling manually
[16:28]<drdyrrr>my Metroweks CodeWarrior for C++ disagrees with yo
[16:28]<rwyfcygs>He works for British Telecom
[16:28]<zugvydn>awilkins: Java is pretty good, don't know why everyone is biased against it..
[16:28]<drdyrrr>well first off it doesn't have properties
[16:29]<lcs>second i takes ages to load
[16:29]<lcs>(on slow machines)
[16:29]<drdyrrr>thirdly the vm's tend to be not as compatible as you're made to believe
[16:29]<drdyrrr>especially if you want to write games... where you can choose between java3d, midp, cldc...
[16:30]<lcs>and it lack good marketing
[16:30]<lcs>lacks*
[16:30]<rwyfcygs>And proper Attribute support
[16:30]<drdyrrr>and is 100% controlled by one company
[16:30]<drdyrrr>even c# is a proper open standard
[16:30]<zugvydn>pks: yes its slow, but its a good language in itsself
[16:30]<zugvydn>IMO
[16:31]<gruss_zoo>yeah.. a proper open standard implemented by only microsoft :)
[16:31]<drdyrrr>also the way it handles value types is a bit poor
[16:31]<lcs>runtime: i've only written one app in java, so i cannot really tell you if it is a good language
[16:31]<lcs>runtime: i can only tell you that eclipse rox :)
[16:31]<drdyrrr>Gauss_Z88, DotGnu, Mono ?
[16:31]<zugvydn>pks: I've never used eclippse, I use Sun Java Studio
[16:31]<drdyrrr>oh, and java's windowing toolkit is a piece of crap.
[16:32]<drdyrrr>not that system.winforms is any better.
[16:32]<zugvydn>pks: I've written some Java , and I like it from what I've done..
[16:32]<zugvydn>damieng: What's wrong with Winforms?
[16:32]<gruss_zoo>damieng: so mono is net2.0 compatible? or even has full il compatibility?
[16:32]<lcs>damieng: true, gui toolkit is a mess
[16:32]<drdyrrr>and java's web app support is a mess.
[16:32]<drdyrrr>heh
[16:32]<zugvydn>damieng: Java's isnt that great, but winforms is good IMO
[16:32]<drdyrrr>Gauss_Z88, pretty close I believe.
[16:32]<drdyrrr>WinForms is fucking awful.
[16:32]<zugvydn>damieng: Support for winforms too?
[16:32]<drdyrrr>it's just a thin wrapper over win32
[16:33]<zugvydn>damieng: How so?
[16:33]<drdyrrr>try writing a big proper app with mvc...
[16:33]<lcs>damieng: you dont like windows forms?
[16:33]<drdyrrr>okay, here's an example.
[16:33]<drdyrrr>ListView...
[16:33]<zugvydn>damieng: yea, and what's wrong with listview?
[16:33]<drdyrrr>takes ListItems... rather than an IListItem...
[16:34]<drdyrrr>so you subclass ListItem anyway and have it sign up for event notification of the domain object it is representing
[16:34]<zugvydn>hey has anyone used eclipse C++ IDE
[16:34]<drdyrrr>except .... ListView decides it will never tell ListItem that it is being removed from the view
[16:34]<drdyrrr>so ListItem can't unnasign from the domain object's even handler
[16:34]<drdyrrr>and you've got a memory leak.
[16:34]<drdyrrr>Worse yet the entire form is now closing...
[16:35]<drdyrrr>but that won't get freed because there is a reference to the listitem in a domain object still.
[16:35]<gruss_zoo>i like swing far more than java
[16:35]<gruss_zoo>has a proper extendable MVC concept
[16:35]<zugvydn>I'm content with winforms.
[16:35]<drdyrrr>Gauss_Z88, indeed it does. Shame it's sooo slow.
[16:35]<drdyrrr>runtime, I expect thats because you don't ever do anything big or that dynamically updates the user interface.
[16:36]<gruss_zoo>instead of things like the treeview where i cant do anything beyond the low horizon of what ms expected programmers to do
[16:36]<lcs>hehe, true, dynamic UI updates are killing my app
[16:36]<lcs>but i think that it would be slow in any language
[16:36]<drdyrrr>if i have a form open in my ui that sets a property on a domain object i don't want my form to have to check every combination of other forms to work out what to change.
[16:36]<lcs>err. language, framework
[16:36]<zugvydn>damieng: I've done big stuff. I had over 200 controls on one form ...but from what Ive done winforms hasnt caused me problems.
[16:37]<rwyfcygs>Periodic refeshes
[16:37]<drdyrrr>the domain object should fire off a notification to interested parties and they should update accordingly.
[16:37]<drdyrrr>but this is impossible with winforms the way it is.
[16:37]<rwyfcygs>Have a dirty flag, and redraw every so often, not for every little thing
[16:37]<zugvydn>damineg: Btw Mono supports winforms?
[16:37]<lcs>awilkins: that what i was thinking about
[16:37]<drdyrrr>it has a wrapper over gtk afaik
[16:37]<rwyfcygs>runtime: Mono has *limited* winforms support
[16:37]<drdyrrr>i'm not on about one form with 200 controls.
[16:38]<drdyrrr>i'm on about an app where you could have theoritically hundreds of forms open.
[16:38]<drdyrrr>take windows explorer for example.
[16:38]<zugvydn>awilkins: What doesn't it support about winforms?
[16:38]<drdyrrr>when you rename a file in one window the others update
[16:38]<drdyrrr>anyway, there is a sort-of fix.
[16:38]<lcs>damieng: actualy that was a bad example
[16:39]<rwyfcygs>runtime: I don't know, I've avoided it. But it's the least complete part of Mono
[16:39]<drdyrrr>which is to create a replacement for the event notification system built-in to .net with one that uses weakreferences
[16:39]<lcs>damieng: because this update is done periodicaly
[16:39]<rwyfcygs>runtime: The closes I've got to Winforms on Mono is System.Drawing.2D
[16:39]<lcs>damieng: or at least its not real time
[16:39]<drdyrrr>i've spoken to a few people on the .net team and they're looking into it for the next release.
[16:40]<drdyrrr>in the mean time you'll see such a solution coming together on my blog. I've got EquatableWeakReference<T> on there which is the basis for WeakL:ist<T> i've not yet published.
[16:40]<drdyrrr>pks, i can't imagine updating x number of forms even in a period loop is that easy
[16:41]<lcs>damieng: one question, what happens if you make two listboxes use one datasource
[16:41]<lcs>damieng: when you, let's say, rename one item in the first list box, will the second one update itself?
[16:42]<drdyrrr>i don't know, i don't use datasources
[16:43]<rwyfcygs>Oooh, mono 1.17
[16:43]<lcs>i think it should
[16:43]<lcs>but i am too lazy to try :)
[16:43]<lcs>if it would work, you would have explorer like behaviour, when you change one thing in one window, other one would get updated
[16:45]<drdyrrr>do listviews support datasources?
[16:45]<zugvydn>_^^_
[16:56]<pzynsv-jp-psy>CodeRun:
[16:56]<pzynsv-jp-psy>sup homie
[16:56]<cjmgrug>hey Priest-of-Psi!
[16:57]<pzynsv-jp-psy>how goes mate?

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