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[22:41]<jusvygc>vulture: The OGL committee has been trying to define a new API for like 7 years and hasn't gotten anywhere from what I've seen
[22:41]<dbq>microsoft makes closed platform specs, to block competition, and use their massive monopole status to get people to accept that shit
[22:41]<jusvygc>DB2: But anyway -- do some research on this AJAX stuff. Microsoft defines their own extensions when the standard isn't good enough
[22:41]<dbq>who sane enough (and when given a choice) will choose a closed platform ?
[22:41]<vufvuzn>JustinC: Perhaps, seems only a few places still take the time to make things portable (iD, last I checked, and Epic)
[22:41]<jusvygc>DB2: XmlHttpRequest started as a Microsoft proprietary technology
[22:41]<zyjvnz>DB2 your 'facts' need some checking up on
[22:41]<jusvygc>DB2: All of the AJAX trends online could be attributed to their "proprietary" crap
[22:41]<dbq>AJAX is one issue, and befire it was called as AJAX, already all the platforms supportered their own extensions
[22:42]<dbq>so give me a break
[22:42]<jusvygc>DB2: The other platforms copied Microsoft.
[22:42]<jusvygc>It call came from a proprietary IE extension.
[22:42]<vufvuzn>JustinC: Got any ref on that - first big "AJAX is cool" thing I saw was Google Maps I guess.. and I don't know that that was based on anything MS
[22:42]<vufvuzn>wouldn't mind reading about it
[22:42]<snfxnzynf>3D Labs tried to propose an OO OpenGL 2.0 spec to compete with DirectX, but their spec got thrown out by all of the old farts on the ARB. the only addition of theirs that got added to the spec was glslang
[22:42]<snfxnzynf>it's their own fault
[22:42]<jusvygc>vulture: Sure, I'll look around. AJAX has been around for a lot longer than Google Maps, it just didn't become a "web trend"
[22:42]<zyjvnz>vulture microsoft was using it in their outlook web front end for years
[22:42]<jusvygc>vulture: Amazon.com was using it on their site, for example, to do minor stuff. Like track users
[22:42]<zyjvnz>before google latched onto it
[22:43]<jusvygc>ah yes! Outlook. THere's an example
[22:43]<vufvuzn>JustinC: yeah, I figured that much, just wasn't sure where it might've "started"
[22:43]<zyjvnz>i would wager on outlook
[22:43]<jusvygc>THe whole thing started because some guy at Microsoft decided that the web needed an asychronous communciation thing
[22:43]<vufvuzn>'course something like this doesn't really start - it just evolved in small steps
[22:43]<zyjvnz>if not, its the platform they used to push it
[22:43]<jusvygc>then XmlHttpRequest object -- an extension to the normal DOM stuff
[22:43]<jusvygc>then Firefox and other browsers copied it and added their own extensions
[22:43]<jusvygc>This is my favorite example of "Microsoft is good to extend the standards by adding new stuff"
[22:43]<jusvygc>Anyway, I think MS mostly tries to stick to standards now anyway. IE7 is supposed to be good.
[22:44]<zyjvnz>sgi killed by directx?
[22:44]<jusvygc>MS only violates standards when a standard doesn't exist that's good enough for them. That's been my experience.
[22:44]<dbq>rioter: then by what ?
[22:44]<txnjzd>Most of the commentary I have read suggests that CSS support in IE7 is better, but still couldn't really be called "fixed"
[22:44]<snfxnzynf>SGI died because they weren't able to keep up with the market. bad management
[22:44]<dbq>JustinC: what sane man will accept puting all his work / life in a closed proprietry system ?
[22:44]<vufvuzn>as for C#, it seems they've done their bit to publish standards, etc. 3rd party implementations have the same problems they do with Java - they're always a step behind. The only difference is that Sun makes an effort for other platforms where MS doesn't.
[22:44]<zyjvnz>most people i speak to admit that it was the reduce cost of hardware, the rise of clustering and sgi just kept pushing expensive machiens, that could be beaten cheaper
[22:45]<vufvuzn>Both suffer vendor lock-in.
[22:45]<jusvygc>DB2: I don't know. A lot of people are sure using XmlHttpRequest online now aren't they? Look at Google Maps..
[22:45]<jusvygc>That's *still* not standardized..
[22:45]<txnjzd>XmlHttpRequest has a w3c standard
[22:45]<dbq>JustinC: i know AJAX abit more than you do
[22:45]<txnjzd>(obviously, IE6 doesn't follow it, not sure about v7)
[22:45]<dbq>i even coded my own hand-lib in it, before all the ajax buzz aruond it
[22:45]<vufvuzn>JustinC: Does Google Maps use it? I'd thought this stuff was done with JS & not much in the way of browser-level extensions..
[22:45]<jusvygc>DB2: I know quite a bit about AJAX :)
[22:46]<zyjvnz>DB2 then you would have been basing it off a microsoft lib :)
[22:46]<jusvygc>DB2: Before I worked on the C# compiler team at Microsoft I worked for Amazon doing AJAX front-end work :)
[22:46]<vufvuzn>Theory: know when it arose?
[22:46]<txnjzd>vulture: after IE6 shipped
[22:46]<jusvygc>I've done a lot of stuff with it. But maybe you know more :)
[22:46]<dbq>JustinC: again, i dont think a monopole company should be allowed to make this kind of usage of priority protocols
[22:46]<zyjvnz>vulture dont know if you know or not, but lang has decided that he wants to live in uni, and signed onto a phd haha
[22:46]<jusvygc>DB2: What kind of stuff?
[22:47]<dbq>i think there should be a law that forces them to open up the spes
[22:47]<dbq>office files (which they are finally doing)
[22:47]<jusvygc>DB2: The .NET specs are open now...
[22:47]<dbq>the usage of their own WWW stuff
[22:47]<zyjvnz>DB2 so they spend millions of dollars researching a protocall
[22:47]<zyjvnz>and they should just give it away for free?
[22:47]<dbq>rioter: yeah
[22:47]<jusvygc>DB2: So a company shouldn't ever get to have industrial secrets?
[22:47]<dbq>thats the price of them being a monopole
[22:47]<zyjvnz>DB2 put the crack pipe down
[22:47]<dbq>JustinC: and you want to tell me that microsoft isnt doing FUD tactics ?
[22:47]<dbq>JustinC: not a company like them
[22:48]<jusvygc>DB2: Look around... there are a lot of monopolies in the world that actually do negative things to the market. MS just tries to compete really hard
[22:48]<jusvygc>look at Pepsi and Coke
[22:48]<dbq>rioter: never tried
[22:48]<jusvygc>Look at Comcast
[22:48]<jusvygc>How many different ISPs provide you with service?
[22:48]<txnjzd>obviously it is completely unfair to expect a company to compete purely on the quality of its products, rather than on the size of its user base.
[22:48]<jusvygc>I have *one* in my city. If I don't think their rates are fair there is nothing I can do.
[22:48]<dbq>JustinC: about 15 ? :)
[22:48]<jusvygc>DB2: I live in Houston, TX and I have exactly one. It's bullshit..
[22:48]<dbq>thats true..
[22:48]<jusvygc>The thing about the software world -- it has extremely low barriers to entry
[22:48]<vufvuzn>rioter: I know he's been doing his PhD this year. We keep in touch pretty often - chatted to him on WoW last night. He's going to be over staying with me for a week in a month or two
[22:48]<zyjvnz>ah cool wasnt sure if you two kept in touch or not :
[22:48]<zyjvnz>)
[22:49]<jusvygc>Monopolies in the software world aren't the same as monopolies in the real world
[22:49]<jusvygc>OS monopolies are close, though.
[22:49]<jusvygc>Because OSes have massively high barrier to entry. But not stuff like web browsers IMO
[22:49]<zyjvnz>microsoft is not a monopoly though
[22:49]<dbq>the only reason firefox isnt 50% of the market
[22:49]<vufvuzn>rioter: Tara (his gf) stayed for a few days last month - Lang'd had an shiny new Zaurus delivered to my address prior to that so she could take it back for him. The geek ;)
[22:50]<jusvygc>I don't think they've abused their monopoly. They got in antitrust troubles years ago for bundling a web browser with their OS.
[22:50]<dbq>is cause of how microsoft courpted the web landscape
[22:50]<jusvygc>Like, wtf?
[22:50]<jusvygc>DB2: .... what?
[22:50]<jusvygc>I use Firefox as my primary browser and have for years.
[22:50]<dbq>with their specs, lots of site look bad in IE
[22:50]<jusvygc>I have no problem hitting every page with it.
[22:50]<dbq>non of the bank site here even work in FF
[22:50]<vufvuzn>JustinC: but you wouldn't be able to have it as your "primary browser" if it weren't for the antitrust case
[22:50]<dbq>and lots of site have FF quirks here
[22:50]<jusvygc>DB2: The reasons people haven't adopted Firefox are much more complex than what you say...
[22:50]<txnjzd>more recent antitrust cases being Windows Media Player (convicted by European Court) and windows messenger (convicted in Taiwan)
[22:50]<jusvygc>vulture: How's that? MS never prevented people from installing alternative browsers ever..

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