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[22:50]<dbq>much more complex ? rofl... k..
[22:51]<vufvuzn>DB2: I used my Australian bank's website with Firefox
[22:51]<dbq>typing URL is really complex
[22:51]<dbq>here in israel there are tons of compability issues...
[22:51]<jusvygc>DB2: The real reason blocking Firefox adoption is that it's not as well suited for corporate environments
[22:51]<jusvygc>Corporations like managed software that's centerally installed and managed, etc.
[22:51]<dbq>i dnot want coprporate env, i want to access my bank
[22:51]<vufvuzn>JustinC: No, but from making it the integrated default for opening pages & other internal MS hooks. The "Set Program Access & Defaults" feature in XP is purely because of that
[22:51]<zyjvnz>vulture haha, i would be doing the exact same thing :P
[22:51]<vufvuzn>JustinC: why can't Firefox be centrally installed & managed?
[22:52]<jusvygc>vulture: Windows has always had an ability to chang the viewer program for a file extension now?
[22:52]<vufvuzn>DB2: That's your bank's fault, not Microsoft's.
[22:52]<jusvygc>vulture: It can, but it's not part of a package
[22:52]<jusvygc>vulture: It's not backed by a corporation
[22:52]<jusvygc>People like MSFT because if their network goes down they can get MSFT on the phone
[22:52]<zyjvnz>cept given my girlfriend managed to drop her phone in the toilet
[22:52]<zyjvnz>it probably wouldnt be the best idea
[22:52]<dbq>vulture: it is microsoft, cause of that lame ActiveX, and other crap they use
[22:52]<vufvuzn>JustinC: Right - but there were/are other internal hooks that would always open IE & thus didn't provide an even playing field.
[22:52]<vufvuzn>I believe that's the notion
[22:52]<jusvygc>And say "help us fix our servers" and MSFT will. That kind of service guarantee is very important to companies..
[22:52]<jusvygc>vulture: The even playing field is install Linux if you don't like Windows? :p
[22:52]<vufvuzn>DB2: Your bank chose vendor lock-in. As they could've written a page that rendered ok in FF, but didn't function inIE
[22:53]<jusvygc>I don't think MSFT should have to open/change their OS for any reason like that. But I think of course it's a good thing to do and I'd advocate it.
[22:53]<jusvygc>But thinking it's the right thing to do is very different from thinking they should be forced to do it..
[22:53]<jusvygc>Free country, right? :/
[22:53]<dbq>not my bank.. ALL THE STUPID BANKS HERE
[22:53]<dbq>and there are many
[22:53]<jusvygc>I would hate the idea that I run a business that's so successful that someone else is going to come in and tell me how I have to write my software
[22:53]<vufvuzn>Not entirely free, no. Anti-monopoly legislation exists to protect consumers, promote competition, etc.
[22:53]<jusvygc>What i have to add to support competitors to my software... shit like that
[22:54]<dbq>i would hate being forced to use a software, cause everybody else is using it (but i have to)
[22:54]<jusvygc>DB2: You don't have to use Windows. There are plenty of alternatives. OTher people using it doesn't force you to use it too
[22:54]<vufvuzn>DB2: Right, but it's still their choice. Not Microsoft's. Like I said - they could've equally made something that functions in FF and not IE
[22:54]<jusvygc>Open Office can read Office files, right?
[22:54]<dbq>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_graphics_API
[22:54]<jusvygc>Nevermind that Open Office sux compared to Office... maybe that's why people don't like it :P
[22:54]<dbq>no it cant
[22:54]<txnjzd>OpenOffice can't read/write office files
[22:55]<txnjzd>not to the standard required if you are a corporation
[22:55]<vufvuzn>JustinC: There are issues of reliability, due to a lack of open standards.
[22:55]<dbq>if it could lots of people would use it to save costs
[22:55]<jusvygc>I think lots of individuals would use it. I don't think many companies would use it.
[22:55]<dbq>vulture: FF uses WWW standards, IE doesnt, if both would use a standard (and ie is closed), then everything wuld be fine
[22:55]<jusvygc>Remember, a lot of companies want a *guarantee*
[22:55]<jusvygc>If Office breaks, companies can get Microsoft techs on the phone to fix it.
[22:55]<jusvygc>If OO breaks, who do you call?
[22:55]<dbq>microsoft sure is turning around now abit (with the enhcnaced compability mode ni IE7, open office xml, and lots of other crap)
[22:55]<jusvygc>Send an email to a listserv and have geeks yell at you for not RTFMing?
[22:55]<vufvuzn>DB2: They both have limitations & extensions. I've not seen a full review of such things (similarly - a full review of VC++8 and G++ 4.x would be interesting)
[22:56]<dbq>rofl, office broke allot for me
[22:56]<jusvygc>DB2: Firefox has its own nonstandard exntesions just like IE
[22:56]<dbq>and nobody in MICROSOFT could help me
[22:56]<vufvuzn>JustinC: No - you'd hire someone who knows how to maintain it, just as you hire Microsoft to do the same. There are lots of companies making money out of Linux service
[22:56]<vufvuzn>RH being the biggest
[22:56]<txnjzd>JustinC: There is an important distinction between an extension and a misimplementation I think you may be missing
[22:57]<dbq>i wrote a 120 document in word, and in page 101 things startd to break dramatically, and microsoft on phone couldnt help
[22:57]<jusvygc>vulture: Companies don't want to hire their own people to do that, though
[22:57]<jusvygc>vulture: They want to pay for that service from another company
[22:57]<txnjzd>IE can add all the features and additions they want to IE, and that's fine, I don't have to use them
[22:57]<vufvuzn>JustinC: paying MS or RH isn't substantially different
[22:57]<txnjzd>but if IE take features defined in a standard, and make them behave in a way different to what the standard says
[22:57]<jusvygc>vulture: Right, Redhat is a good solution.
[22:57]<vufvuzn>but yes, most of the big wigs have faith in a name like MS & that's why they buy in
[22:57]<txnjzd>That is a right pain in the bum
[22:58]<jusvygc>It's not just faith in the software.
[22:58]<jusvygc>Rmemeber, Microsoft sells a service too. Service of fixing the software if it breaks.
[22:58]<jusvygc>That's why OSS is not a good alternative, because a lot of the time it's "take it or leave it, fix it on your own" kind of stuff
[22:58]<txnjzd>yeah, that profit model always interested me
[22:58]<vufvuzn>I didn't say software.
[22:58]<jusvygc>I know, I'm just saying..
[22:58]<txnjzd>I'll sell you a broken product, and I'll also sell you services to fix it...
[22:58]<dbq>who told me to check the facts on SGI ?!?!?!?
[22:58]<txnjzd>license to print money right? :-)
[22:58]<vufvuzn>And it's not that way if you don't want it to be - as I mentioned before - there are service providers for those companies that want them.
[22:58]<dbq>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_graphics_API <------
[22:58]<jusvygc>There are not a lot of companies that sell an OSS service.
[22:59]<jusvygc>Redhat is one..
[22:59]<dbq>By 1999 it was clear to SGI that Microsoft had no intention of delivering Low Level. Although officially working on it, almost no resources were dedicated to actually producing code, and at the same time Microsoft was in the process of investing massively in DirectX 7.0 (similar to 3.0 largely in name only). Without Low Level, Fahrenheit couldn't be delivered, and the project stalled. Since SGI's primary interest in the project was to p
[22:59]<txnjzd>Novel is another
[22:59]<dbq>this is how microsoft killed sgi
[23:00]<dbq>there are stories like this that microsoft does to all their competition.. fair play ? i would think not for a company in this size
[23:00]<jusvygc>DB2: A lot of other things apparently went wrong a SGI. You're ignoring a lot of other points of that article:
[23:01]<jusvygc>Their MIPS-based workstations were quickly losing the performance lead they had in the early 1990s, and the company was in serious trouble as the average PC slowly but surely encroached on the high-end graphics market.
[23:01]<dbq>didnt say SGI were gr8
[23:01]<dbq>and this project design was to move from MIPS to PC, only microsoft blocked them
[23:01]<dbq>in a dirty way
[23:01]<dbq>i wonder where the netscape / ms story is :)
[23:01]<jusvygc>How did they "block" them?
[23:01]<zyjvnz>perhaps microsoft saw it was a sinking ship unlike the SGI managment and left
[23:01]<dbq>you have to be blind or working at MS to not see this
[23:02]<jusvygc>I'm just asking you to explain.
[23:02]<jusvygc>I mean -- if MSFT violated contract, then that's a problem.
[23:02]<dbq>by not working on this thing
[23:02]<jusvygc>Are you sure they didn't stop working on this because they saw SGI as a sinking ship?
[23:02]<jusvygc>As the article says, SGI was already having problems.
[23:02]<vuwyluwy>i need a control like a list box but with multiple columns. which one to use?
[23:02]<jusvygc>It seemed like this was a last ditch attempt to save the business
[23:03]<jusvygc>tuxipuxi: Try ListView
[23:03]<dbq>welp this is getting stale by the moment

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